I wasn’t planning to share this conversation. “Writer criticises trans activism, receives disproportionate and hyperbolic abuse,” is hardly a newsflash in 2022. But a) this conversation is interesting in its own right, and b) it’s vital context for an even more interesting conversation that I’ll be posting later this week. In my article, Trans Activism’s Self-Inflicted Backlash, I pointed out that trans discourse is becoming so incoherent and irresponsible that even grifters like Matt Walsh can seem like the reasonable person in the room.
Bear with me if you will. I hope to tie this to Stephanie's mindset (but I can't read minds).
Trying to learn more about the issue I discovered (I didn't know this) that there are more than two biological sexes with implications not fully understood. From this (https://tinyurl.com/ybjwfctv) source:
The six biological karyotype sexes that do not result in death to the fetus are:
X – Roughly 1 in 2,000 to 1 in 5,000 people (Turner’s )
𝗫𝗫 – Most common form of female
XXY – Roughly 1 in 500 to 1 in 1,000 people (Klinefelter)
In all of your discussions with transgender people, have any mentioned that they have one of the uncommon non XX or XY biological karyotype sexes? Gender dysphoria would probably be more comprehensible to the lay person in those cases even though the article states the gender is something else.
I've mentioned the following more tersely, but I use the quote:
The tie in (again, I cannot read minds) is that the unbending militancy of people like Stephanie is that they are genuinely frustrated by people (heterosexual men and lesbian women in particular I would think) who respond to “𝘠𝘰𝘶 𝘤𝘢𝘯 𝘣𝘦 𝘢 𝘸𝘰𝘮𝘢𝘯 𝘸𝘪𝘵𝘩 𝘢 𝘱𝘦𝘯𝘪𝘴” with "𝘈𝘩, 𝘯𝘰, 𝘵𝘩𝘢𝘵 𝘱𝘦𝘯𝘪𝘴 𝘪𝘴 𝘯𝘰𝘵 𝘢 𝘤𝘭𝘪𝘵𝘰𝘳𝘪𝘴." 𝗧𝗵𝗲𝘆 𝗱𝗶𝗱𝗻'𝘁 𝘀𝗮𝘆 𝘁𝗵𝗮𝘁 𝗶𝘁 𝗶𝘀, 𝗯𝘂𝘁 𝗺𝗼𝘀𝘁 𝗽𝗲𝗼𝗽𝗹𝗲 𝗰𝗮𝗻'𝘁 𝗴𝗲𝘁 𝗽𝗮𝘀𝘁 𝘁𝗵𝗮𝘁 𝗽𝗵𝘆𝘀𝗶𝗰𝗮𝗹 "𝘁𝗵𝗶𝗻𝗴." It is unfortunate that biological sex and gender use the same words (male and female) because this is what we get.
Frustration does not alter the fact that if you start a conversation/debate with an insult as you figuratively spit in their eye, there is not much hope of anything productive following. That goes to the heart of your point that hostile militancy does not help their cause, even when you can empathize with their frustration. When they go further and try to harm you (job, income, reputation) they should expect hostility in return.
A lot of words to agree with you. I do wonder about the relationship between the uncommon biological karyotypes and gender dysphoria though. How often is it a factor, if it is? Does it matter.
Well, I deal with hate-filled radicals when I'm litterpicking and helping homeless addicted folks in tent encampments, so I get the spewing of hatred. Sometimes it's a bot, but other times it's a flavor of "mutual aid" that rejects all interventions in order to make some kind of nihilistic anti-social point. I don't give them much oxygen online and when I encounter them at the encampments, I ask them to get to work cleaning up the mountains of garbage. I'd say the person you're debating and discussing with here is either a bot or a hate-filled radical. Either way, it's mostly a waste of time to try and have a discussion.
'Trans rights' has become the left's War on Women. I assume Stephanie is trans because she pulls out the tired stock 'You're making our lives unsafer,' which is exactly what she's doing to herself. These people project all their own worst impulses and faults onto others. It's why we women keep getting accused of 'not wanting trans people to exist' when in fact they're the ones trying to change the definition of 'woman', not us. Or misgendering men to compete on women's sports teams, and of course get access to women's-only spaces. Stephanie might quite rightly argue they're not 'real trans' (I agree with you both here) but her attitude and those like her sure does make it easier for sexual predators to take advantage of a fuzzy-headed movement and endanger women. And then there's the whole idea that we're 'literally killing trans people' and 'inciting violence against transpeople' when it's transwomen, and transactivists who may or may not be trans themselves (but are always men if they aren't) attacking women, and particularly lesbians, at protests. I don't know of a single case where women attacked transactivists physically, probably because they know these guys can kick their asses.
People operating from earlier stages of Adult Development see things more in terms of black and white, think that you are either ‘with me or against me’, and their behavior is informed by reward and punishment. It is more likely for someone in the earlier stages to "Listen to Win," and to think that there is something wrong with you if you disagree with their perspective.
People operating from later stages are able to see gray and nuance, can accept that others may have a perspective that informs the whole, rely on their own value system to know wrong from right, and are more likely to “listen to learn,” which allows them to refine their mental models.
Even folks who have made it to later stages of development can ‘fall back’ to earlier stages in some contexts. ‘Fall back’ is a way that I explain the state of public discourse to myself - and how I am making sense of Stephanie’s way of engaging here.
Unfortunately, as much as I can make sense of what is happening and even why it is happening through this framework, it isn’t always clear how we amplify kindness, safety and care so that more of us can show up at our best. There is a lot of anger, fear and trauma out there, and that so often gets in our way.
Kudos to you, Steve, for wanting to cultivate a space for constructive dialogue.
"That’s why I’m at such pains to remind myself, and everybody else, that people like Stephanie do not represent the trans community."
And Donald Trump doesn't represent the Republican Party. Teeth-gnashing fundamentalists don't represent American Christians. Leather-clad sadomasochists pantomiming analingus on pride parade floats didn't represent gay men.
These are true for the most determined scholars; for the great majority of people less careful, all four do indeed represent their respective tribes, making bigots' jobs so very much easier.
Most people don't know any "trans" people. There may be that one tiresome person in the office who has "their" own reserved seat in Human Resources for constantly creating conflicts over unmet identity demands. For most of us the people you're talking about are the face of "trans," with their pronoun pairs and their "queer" credentials in their online profiles. And it will not take too many 13yo girls going under the knife against parents' wishes in a paroxysm of affirmation to turn millions of votes against the party more aligned with the "woke" crowd.
"That’s why I’m at such pains to remind myself, and everybody else, that people like Stephanie do not represent the trans community."
Problem is, Steve, they do represent the "trans" community. Maybe they weren't elected to the position but in the same way that Trump Won Republicans represent their party and fundamentalst bigots represent American Christians, people like Stephanie are indeed its public face. They make all the impressions and they arouse the backlash you wrote about, affecting the innocent few who really are dysphoric.
Political progress for gays was held back for at least a generation by lewd separatists who sought and received validation by being as offensive as they could manage, and loud about it too. Yes one can be scholarly and precise enough to point out that the Stephanies don't really represent their community but, well, good luck finding anyone who has any other impression, aside from "woke" people who are every bit as obnoxious, policing everyone else.
"You got your bros fist bumping themselves and slapping you on the back, you certainly don't care about having a 'conversation'".
Easily the funniest quote in any comment in anything you've written.
Bear with me if you will. I hope to tie this to Stephanie's mindset (but I can't read minds).
Trying to learn more about the issue I discovered (I didn't know this) that there are more than two biological sexes with implications not fully understood. From this (https://tinyurl.com/ybjwfctv) source:
The six biological karyotype sexes that do not result in death to the fetus are:
X – Roughly 1 in 2,000 to 1 in 5,000 people (Turner’s )
𝗫𝗫 – Most common form of female
XXY – Roughly 1 in 500 to 1 in 1,000 people (Klinefelter)
𝗫𝗬 – Most common form of male
XYY – Roughly 1 out of 1,000 people
XXXY – Roughly 1 in 18,000 to 1 in 50,000 births
"𝘞𝘩𝘦𝘯 𝘺𝘰𝘶 𝘤𝘰𝘯𝘴𝘪𝘥𝘦𝘳 𝘵𝘩𝘢𝘵 𝘵𝘩𝘦𝘳𝘦 𝘢𝘳𝘦 7,000,000,000 𝘢𝘭𝘪𝘷𝘦 𝘰𝘯 𝘵𝘩𝘦 𝘱𝘭𝘢𝘯𝘦𝘵, 𝘵𝘩𝘦𝘳𝘦 𝘢𝘳𝘦 𝘢𝘭𝘮𝘰𝘴𝘵 𝘢𝘴𝘴𝘶𝘳𝘦𝘥𝘭𝘺 𝘵𝘦𝘯𝘴 𝘰𝘧 𝘮𝘪𝘭𝘭𝘪𝘰𝘯𝘴 𝘰𝘧 𝘱𝘦𝘰𝘱𝘭𝘦 𝘸𝘩𝘰 𝘢𝘳𝘦 𝘯𝘰𝘵 𝘮𝘢𝘭𝘦 𝘰𝘳 𝘧𝘦𝘮𝘢𝘭𝘦. 𝘔𝘢𝘯𝘺 𝘵𝘪𝘮𝘦𝘴, 𝘵𝘩𝘦𝘴𝘦 𝘱𝘦𝘰𝘱𝘭𝘦 𝘢𝘳𝘦 𝘶𝘯𝘢𝘸𝘢𝘳𝘦 𝘰𝘧 𝘵𝘩𝘦𝘪𝘳 𝘵𝘳𝘶𝘦 𝘴𝘦𝘹. 𝘐𝘵’𝘴 𝘪𝘯𝘵𝘦𝘳𝘦𝘴𝘵𝘪𝘯𝘨 𝘵𝘰 𝘯𝘰𝘵𝘦 𝘵𝘩𝘢𝘵 𝘦𝘷𝘦𝘳𝘺𝘰𝘯𝘦 𝘢𝘴𝘴𝘶𝘮𝘦𝘴 𝘵𝘩𝘢𝘵 𝘵𝘩𝘦𝘺, 𝘱𝘦𝘳𝘴𝘰𝘯𝘢𝘭𝘭𝘺, 𝘢𝘳𝘦 𝘟𝘠 𝘰𝘳 𝘟𝘟."
In all of your discussions with transgender people, have any mentioned that they have one of the uncommon non XX or XY biological karyotype sexes? Gender dysphoria would probably be more comprehensible to the lay person in those cases even though the article states the gender is something else.
I've mentioned the following more tersely, but I use the quote:
"𝘛𝘩𝘪𝘴 𝘪𝘴 𝘸𝘩𝘺 𝘴𝘰𝘮𝘦 𝘧𝘳𝘪𝘯𝘨𝘦 𝘢𝘤𝘵𝘪𝘷𝘪𝘴𝘵𝘴 𝘤𝘢𝘯 𝘴𝘦𝘳𝘪𝘰𝘶𝘴𝘭𝘺 𝘴𝘢𝘺, “𝘠𝘰𝘶 𝘤𝘢𝘯 𝘣𝘦 𝘢 𝘸𝘰𝘮𝘢𝘯 𝘸𝘪𝘵𝘩 𝘢 𝘱𝘦𝘯𝘪𝘴”, 𝘸𝘩𝘪𝘭𝘦 𝘮𝘰𝘴𝘵 𝘰𝘧 𝘵𝘩𝘦 𝘸𝘰𝘳𝘭𝘥 𝘸𝘪𝘭𝘭 𝘭𝘰𝘰𝘬 𝘢𝘵 𝘵𝘩𝘦𝘮 𝘭𝘪𝘬𝘦 𝘵𝘩𝘦𝘺 𝘩𝘢𝘷𝘦 𝘭𝘰𝘴𝘵 𝘵𝘩𝘦𝘪𝘳 𝘮𝘪𝘯𝘥. 𝘛𝘩𝘦𝘺 𝘢𝘳𝘦 𝘪𝘯𝘩𝘦𝘳𝘦𝘯𝘵𝘭𝘺 𝘶𝘴𝘪𝘯𝘨 𝘵𝘩𝘦 𝘵𝘦𝘳𝘮 “𝘸𝘰𝘮𝘢𝘯” 𝘵𝘰 𝘳𝘦𝘧𝘦𝘳 𝘵𝘰 𝘨𝘦𝘯𝘥𝘦𝘳 𝘢𝘯𝘥 𝘯𝘰𝘵 𝘣𝘪𝘰𝘭𝘰𝘨𝘪𝘤𝘢𝘭 𝘴𝘦𝘹. 𝘛𝘩𝘪𝘴 𝘥𝘪𝘧𝘧𝘦𝘳𝘦𝘯𝘤𝘦 𝘪𝘯 𝘷𝘰𝘤𝘢𝘣𝘶𝘭𝘢𝘳𝘺 𝘪𝘴 𝘳𝘦𝘴𝘱𝘰𝘯𝘴𝘪𝘣𝘭𝘦 𝘧𝘰𝘳 𝘷𝘪𝘳𝘵𝘶𝘢𝘭𝘭𝘺 𝘢𝘭𝘭 𝘤𝘰𝘯𝘧𝘭𝘪𝘤𝘵𝘴 𝘣𝘦𝘵𝘸𝘦𝘦𝘯 𝘨𝘳𝘰𝘶𝘱𝘴 𝘰𝘯 𝘪𝘴𝘴𝘶𝘦𝘴 𝘪𝘯 𝘵𝘩𝘪𝘴 𝘢𝘳𝘦𝘯𝘢. 𝘛𝘩𝘦𝘺 𝘥𝘰 𝘯𝘰𝘵 𝘳𝘦𝘢𝘭𝘪𝘻𝘦 𝘵𝘩𝘦𝘺 𝘢𝘳𝘦 𝘶𝘴𝘪𝘯𝘨 𝘢 𝘱𝘩𝘳𝘢𝘴𝘦 𝘵𝘰 𝘳𝘦𝘧𝘦𝘳 𝘵𝘰 𝘵𝘸𝘰 𝘴𝘦𝘱𝘢𝘳𝘢𝘵𝘦 𝘵𝘩𝘪𝘯𝘨𝘴 𝘵𝘩𝘢𝘵 𝘢𝘳𝘦 𝘰𝘧𝘵𝘦𝘯, 𝘣𝘶𝘵 𝘯𝘰𝘵 𝘢𝘭𝘸𝘢𝘺𝘴, 𝘤𝘰𝘯𝘨𝘳𝘶𝘦𝘯𝘵."
The tie in (again, I cannot read minds) is that the unbending militancy of people like Stephanie is that they are genuinely frustrated by people (heterosexual men and lesbian women in particular I would think) who respond to “𝘠𝘰𝘶 𝘤𝘢𝘯 𝘣𝘦 𝘢 𝘸𝘰𝘮𝘢𝘯 𝘸𝘪𝘵𝘩 𝘢 𝘱𝘦𝘯𝘪𝘴” with "𝘈𝘩, 𝘯𝘰, 𝘵𝘩𝘢𝘵 𝘱𝘦𝘯𝘪𝘴 𝘪𝘴 𝘯𝘰𝘵 𝘢 𝘤𝘭𝘪𝘵𝘰𝘳𝘪𝘴." 𝗧𝗵𝗲𝘆 𝗱𝗶𝗱𝗻'𝘁 𝘀𝗮𝘆 𝘁𝗵𝗮𝘁 𝗶𝘁 𝗶𝘀, 𝗯𝘂𝘁 𝗺𝗼𝘀𝘁 𝗽𝗲𝗼𝗽𝗹𝗲 𝗰𝗮𝗻'𝘁 𝗴𝗲𝘁 𝗽𝗮𝘀𝘁 𝘁𝗵𝗮𝘁 𝗽𝗵𝘆𝘀𝗶𝗰𝗮𝗹 "𝘁𝗵𝗶𝗻𝗴." It is unfortunate that biological sex and gender use the same words (male and female) because this is what we get.
Frustration does not alter the fact that if you start a conversation/debate with an insult as you figuratively spit in their eye, there is not much hope of anything productive following. That goes to the heart of your point that hostile militancy does not help their cause, even when you can empathize with their frustration. When they go further and try to harm you (job, income, reputation) they should expect hostility in return.
A lot of words to agree with you. I do wonder about the relationship between the uncommon biological karyotypes and gender dysphoria though. How often is it a factor, if it is? Does it matter.
Well, I deal with hate-filled radicals when I'm litterpicking and helping homeless addicted folks in tent encampments, so I get the spewing of hatred. Sometimes it's a bot, but other times it's a flavor of "mutual aid" that rejects all interventions in order to make some kind of nihilistic anti-social point. I don't give them much oxygen online and when I encounter them at the encampments, I ask them to get to work cleaning up the mountains of garbage. I'd say the person you're debating and discussing with here is either a bot or a hate-filled radical. Either way, it's mostly a waste of time to try and have a discussion.
'Trans rights' has become the left's War on Women. I assume Stephanie is trans because she pulls out the tired stock 'You're making our lives unsafer,' which is exactly what she's doing to herself. These people project all their own worst impulses and faults onto others. It's why we women keep getting accused of 'not wanting trans people to exist' when in fact they're the ones trying to change the definition of 'woman', not us. Or misgendering men to compete on women's sports teams, and of course get access to women's-only spaces. Stephanie might quite rightly argue they're not 'real trans' (I agree with you both here) but her attitude and those like her sure does make it easier for sexual predators to take advantage of a fuzzy-headed movement and endanger women. And then there's the whole idea that we're 'literally killing trans people' and 'inciting violence against transpeople' when it's transwomen, and transactivists who may or may not be trans themselves (but are always men if they aren't) attacking women, and particularly lesbians, at protests. I don't know of a single case where women attacked transactivists physically, probably because they know these guys can kick their asses.
Bet Stephanie's still got 'the dangler'.
These types of exchanges remind me of Robert Kegan’s Adult Development Theory, the idea that adults can make meaning from different ‘forms of mind’ (a link for those who are curious: https://www.contextprofessionals.com/en/adult-development-theory-how-can-leaders-grow-as-adults-1/).
People operating from earlier stages of Adult Development see things more in terms of black and white, think that you are either ‘with me or against me’, and their behavior is informed by reward and punishment. It is more likely for someone in the earlier stages to "Listen to Win," and to think that there is something wrong with you if you disagree with their perspective.
People operating from later stages are able to see gray and nuance, can accept that others may have a perspective that informs the whole, rely on their own value system to know wrong from right, and are more likely to “listen to learn,” which allows them to refine their mental models.
Even folks who have made it to later stages of development can ‘fall back’ to earlier stages in some contexts. ‘Fall back’ is a way that I explain the state of public discourse to myself - and how I am making sense of Stephanie’s way of engaging here.
Unfortunately, as much as I can make sense of what is happening and even why it is happening through this framework, it isn’t always clear how we amplify kindness, safety and care so that more of us can show up at our best. There is a lot of anger, fear and trauma out there, and that so often gets in our way.
Kudos to you, Steve, for wanting to cultivate a space for constructive dialogue.
TY Steve. You do have the patience of a saint. Looking forward to Part 2.
"That’s why I’m at such pains to remind myself, and everybody else, that people like Stephanie do not represent the trans community."
And Donald Trump doesn't represent the Republican Party. Teeth-gnashing fundamentalists don't represent American Christians. Leather-clad sadomasochists pantomiming analingus on pride parade floats didn't represent gay men.
These are true for the most determined scholars; for the great majority of people less careful, all four do indeed represent their respective tribes, making bigots' jobs so very much easier.
Most people don't know any "trans" people. There may be that one tiresome person in the office who has "their" own reserved seat in Human Resources for constantly creating conflicts over unmet identity demands. For most of us the people you're talking about are the face of "trans," with their pronoun pairs and their "queer" credentials in their online profiles. And it will not take too many 13yo girls going under the knife against parents' wishes in a paroxysm of affirmation to turn millions of votes against the party more aligned with the "woke" crowd.
"That’s why I’m at such pains to remind myself, and everybody else, that people like Stephanie do not represent the trans community."
Problem is, Steve, they do represent the "trans" community. Maybe they weren't elected to the position but in the same way that Trump Won Republicans represent their party and fundamentalst bigots represent American Christians, people like Stephanie are indeed its public face. They make all the impressions and they arouse the backlash you wrote about, affecting the innocent few who really are dysphoric.
Political progress for gays was held back for at least a generation by lewd separatists who sought and received validation by being as offensive as they could manage, and loud about it too. Yes one can be scholarly and precise enough to point out that the Stephanies don't really represent their community but, well, good luck finding anyone who has any other impression, aside from "woke" people who are every bit as obnoxious, policing everyone else.